{"id":116855,"date":"2025-04-28T15:02:40","date_gmt":"2025-04-28T23:02:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/2025\/04\/28\/empowering-lawyers-beyond-legal-roles-a-conversation-with-neil-handwerker-and-kimberly-fine\/"},"modified":"2025-04-28T15:02:40","modified_gmt":"2025-04-28T23:02:40","slug":"empowering-lawyers-beyond-legal-roles-a-conversation-with-neil-handwerker-and-kimberly-fine","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/2025\/04\/28\/empowering-lawyers-beyond-legal-roles-a-conversation-with-neil-handwerker-and-kimberly-fine\/","title":{"rendered":"Empowering Lawyers Beyond Legal Roles: A Conversation With Neil Handwerker And Kimberly Fine"},"content":{"rendered":"<figure class=\"wp-block-image alignright is-resized\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" height=\"403\" width=\"620\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/abovethelaw.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2024\/04\/GettyImages-510873232-620x403.jpg?resize=620%2C403&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" title=\"\"><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p><span>In a legal world often defined by rigid swim lanes and limited career trajectories, how do you carve a new path? On<\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/Qwm3jbAzGDU?si=Mi5p7bEMkNWv0W9f\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"> <span>Season 10, Episode 9 of \u201c<\/span><span>Notes to My (Legal) Self<\/span><\/a><span>,\u201d I had the pleasure of talking with Neil Handwerker and Kimberly Fine, co-founders of ex judicata, about reimagining what you can do with a JD. Their platform is transforming how lawyers pivot to fulfilling careers beyond traditional legal roles.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><span>Here\u2019s what I learned about why lawyers are seeking change, how ex judicata is helping them, and what the future holds for nontraditional legal careers.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Meet The Pioneers Of Lawyer Reinvention<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>Neil Handwerker and Kimberly Fine bring unique perspectives to their mission of empowering lawyers. Neil, a JD himself, left legal practice years ago and recognized the lack of resources for lawyers wanting to pivot. Kimberly, an expert in executive education and board governance, saw firsthand the need for career paths that align with lawyers\u2019 unique skill sets. Together, they founded ex judicata to provide tools, resources, and a community for lawyers exploring new opportunities.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>\u201cWe\u2019re here to show that a JD isn\u2019t just a law degree,\u201d said Kimberly. \u201cIt\u2019s a degree in complex problem-solving \u2014 and the world needs more of that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>The Problem: Swim Lanes Without Exit Ramps<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>Many lawyers feel trapped in what Neil described as a \u201cculture of isolation.\u201d In law firms, lawyers are often siloed into specific practice areas with little exposure to other opportunities. Corporate lawyers may fare slightly better, but the profession as a whole often lacks the fluidity seen in other industries. If a lawyer wants out, the traditional options are stark: up or out.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>\u201cLawyers just keep swimming forward without pausing to ask themselves if they\u2019re happy or fulfilled,\u201d Neil observed. \u201cThat\u2019s why we wanted to create defined paths for those looking to pivot.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>The ex judicata Solution: Helping Lawyers Navigate The Pivot<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>To help lawyers identify and pursue nontraditional career paths, ex judicata provides a suite of tools:<\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><b>EXJ Career Match Diagnostic:<\/b><span> A 20-to-30 minute assessment built by PhDs in organizational behavior that identifies your probability of success in five key nonlegal areas.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><b>Job Board:<\/b><span> A curated selection of over 1,100 JD-advantage roles across industries.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><b>Coaches\u2019 Corner:<\/b><span> Access to experienced career coaches who offer 30-minute complimentary sessions to help with resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and strategic planning.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><b>Talent Network:<\/b><span> A platform connecting lawyers with employers who recognize the value of a JD in non-legal roles.<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span>Kimberly emphasized the importance of helping lawyers realize the breadth of opportunities. \u201cFrom compliance and public policy to sales and marketing, there\u2019s a wide array of roles where legal training shines.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Why Do Lawyers Leave The Practice?<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>Not every lawyer exits the profession out of unhappiness. Some seek a better work-life balance, others crave intellectual growth, and some simply want a change of pace.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Kimberly noted that the pandemic forced many lawyers to reevaluate their priorities. \u201cFor the first time, lawyers were home for dinner with their families, and they realized there\u2019s more to life than billing hours,\u201d she said. But the billable hour and the constant \u201calways on\u201d culture remain the top reasons lawyers want out.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Opportunities Beyond Traditional Legal Roles<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>The hundreds of job titles tagged by ex judicata as JD-advantage, reflecting roles where legal skills are highly valued, include:<\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><span>Compliance and risk management<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span>Diversity, equity, and inclusion leadership<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span>Sales and business development<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span>Brand and product management<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span>\u201cThere\u2019s a hidden talent pool in plain sight,\u201d Neil explained. \u201cLawyers bring incredible skills in communication, negotiation, and issue-spotting \u2014 qualities that businesses need more than ever.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Supportive Law Schools And Law Firms<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>Interestingly, ex judicata is receiving strong support from law schools and law firms alike.<\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><b>Law Schools:<\/b><span> Many have onboarded ex judicata to provide alternative career resources for students. JD-advantage placements also count toward ABA employment metrics, a win-win for schools and graduates.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><b>Law Firms:<\/b><span> Innovative firms with internal outplacement services see value in supporting associates who wish to pivot. This approach keeps alumni in the firm\u2019s ecosystem, creating opportunities for future collaboration.<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span>\u201cBy helping lawyers transition successfully, firms actually strengthen their alumni networks and client relationships,\u201d Kimberly noted.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Practical Tips For Lawyers Exploring A Pivot<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>If you\u2019re thinking about leaving the practice of law, where should you start? Neil and Kimberly shared actionable insights:<\/span><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><b>Take The EXJ Career Match Diagnostic:<\/b><span> Pinpoint your strengths and find areas where your JD skills are most valuable.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><b>Read Personal Stories:<\/b><span> Explore how other lawyers have successfully transitioned into new fields.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><b>Ignore The Naysayers:<\/b><span> Neil encouraged introspection. \u201cListen to yourself. Ignore those who say you\u2019re throwing away your degree \u2014 it\u2019s your life.\u201d<\/span><\/li>\n<li><b>Leverage Resources:<\/b><span> Use tools like ex judicata\u2019s job board, coaches, and community events to explore your options.<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><b>Building A Community Around Reinvention<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span>The mission of ex judicata extends beyond tools and resources \u2014 they\u2019re creating a community. Their WeFunder campaign allows supporters to invest in their mission, fostering a shared vision for reimagining what a legal career can look like.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>\u201cChanging someone\u2019s job often changes their life,\u201d Neil reflected. \u201cAnd that\u2019s what drives us \u2014 to help lawyers find careers that bring them fulfillment and joy.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>If you\u2019re ready to explore your options, visit ex judicata and start your journey. Your JD is a passport, not a prison. Where will it take you next?<\/span><\/p>\n<hr>\n<p><strong><em><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-504327 size-thumbnail\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/abovethelaw.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2018\/06\/Olga-Mack-150x150.jpg?resize=150%2C150&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"Olga Mack\" width=\"150\" height=\"150\" title=\"\">Olga V. Mack\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><strong><em>is a Fellow at CodeX, The Stanford Center for Legal Informatics, and a Generative AI Editor at law.MIT. Olga embraces legal innovation and had dedicated her career to improving and shaping the future of law. She is convinced that the legal profession will emerge even stronger, more resilient, and more inclusive than before by embracing technology. Olga is also an award-winning general counsel, operations professional, startup advisor, public speaker, adjunct professor, and entrepreneur. She authored\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Get-Board-Earning-Ticket-Corporate\/dp\/1949991407\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><em>Get on Board: Earning Your Ticket to a Corporate Board Seat<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><em>,\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Fundamentals-Smart-Contract-Security-Richard-ebook\/dp\/B07S8YF27G\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><em>Fundamentals of Smart Contract Security<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong>, and\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Blockchain-Value-Transforming-Business-Communities\/dp\/1952538246\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><em><strong>Blockchain Value: Transforming Business Models, Society, and Communities<\/strong><\/em><\/a><strong><em>.\u00a0She is working on three books:\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><strong><em>Visual IQ for Lawyers (ABA 2024),\u00a0The Rise of Product Lawyers: An Analytical Framework to Systematically Advise Your Clients Throughout the Product Lifecycle (Globe Law and Business 2024), and Legal Operations in the Age of AI and Data (Globe Law and Business 2024). You can follow Olga on\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/olgamack\/\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><em>LinkedIn<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><em>\u00a0and Twitter @olgavmack.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The post <a href=\"https:\/\/abovethelaw.com\/2025\/04\/empowering-lawyers-beyond-legal-roles-a-conversation-with-neil-handwerker-and-kimberly-fine\/\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\">Empowering Lawyers Beyond Legal Roles: A Conversation With Neil Handwerker And Kimberly Fine<\/a> appeared first on <a href=\"https:\/\/abovethelaw.com\/\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\">Above the Law<\/a>.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image alignright is-resized\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" height=\"403\" width=\"620\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/abovethelaw.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2024\/04\/GettyImages-510873232-620x403.jpg?resize=620%2C403&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" title=\"\"><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>In a legal world often defined by rigid swim lanes and limited career trajectories, how do you carve a new path? On<a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/Qwm3jbAzGDU?si=Mi5p7bEMkNWv0W9f\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"> Season 10, Episode 9 of \u201cNotes to My (Legal) Self<\/a>,\u201d I had the pleasure of talking with Neil Handwerker and Kimberly Fine, co-founders of ex judicata, about reimagining what you can do with a JD. Their platform is transforming how lawyers pivot to fulfilling careers beyond traditional legal roles.<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/Qwm3jbAzGDU?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"> <\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s what I learned about why lawyers are seeking change, how ex judicata is helping them, and what the future holds for nontraditional legal careers.<\/p>\n<p><b>Meet The Pioneers Of Lawyer Reinvention<\/b><\/p>\n<p>Neil Handwerker and Kimberly Fine bring unique perspectives to their mission of empowering lawyers. Neil, a JD himself, left legal practice years ago and recognized the lack of resources for lawyers wanting to pivot. Kimberly, an expert in executive education and board governance, saw firsthand the need for career paths that align with lawyers\u2019 unique skill sets. Together, they founded ex judicata to provide tools, resources, and a community for lawyers exploring new opportunities.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWe\u2019re here to show that a JD isn\u2019t just a law degree,\u201d said Kimberly. \u201cIt\u2019s a degree in complex problem-solving \u2014 and the world needs more of that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><b>The Problem: Swim Lanes Without Exit Ramps<\/b><\/p>\n<p>Many lawyers feel trapped in what Neil described as a \u201cculture of isolation.\u201d In law firms, lawyers are often siloed into specific practice areas with little exposure to other opportunities. Corporate lawyers may fare slightly better, but the profession as a whole often lacks the fluidity seen in other industries. If a lawyer wants out, the traditional options are stark: up or out.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cLawyers just keep swimming forward without pausing to ask themselves if they\u2019re happy or fulfilled,\u201d Neil observed. \u201cThat\u2019s why we wanted to create defined paths for those looking to pivot.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><b>The ex judicata Solution: Helping Lawyers Navigate The Pivot<\/b><\/p>\n<p>To help lawyers identify and pursue nontraditional career paths, ex judicata provides a suite of tools:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><b>EXJ Career Match Diagnostic:<\/b> A 20-to-30 minute assessment built by PhDs in organizational behavior that identifies your probability of success in five key nonlegal areas.<\/li>\n<li><b>Job Board:<\/b> A curated selection of over 1,100 JD-advantage roles across industries.<\/li>\n<li><b>Coaches\u2019 Corner:<\/b> Access to experienced career coaches who offer 30-minute complimentary sessions to help with resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and strategic planning.<\/li>\n<li><b>Talent Network:<\/b> A platform connecting lawyers with employers who recognize the value of a JD in non-legal roles.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Kimberly emphasized the importance of helping lawyers realize the breadth of opportunities. \u201cFrom compliance and public policy to sales and marketing, there\u2019s a wide array of roles where legal training shines.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><b>Why Do Lawyers Leave The Practice?<\/b><\/p>\n<p>Not every lawyer exits the profession out of unhappiness. Some seek a better work-life balance, others crave intellectual growth, and some simply want a change of pace.<\/p>\n<p>Kimberly noted that the pandemic forced many lawyers to reevaluate their priorities. \u201cFor the first time, lawyers were home for dinner with their families, and they realized there\u2019s more to life than billing hours,\u201d she said. But the billable hour and the constant \u201calways on\u201d culture remain the top reasons lawyers want out.<\/p>\n<p><b>Opportunities Beyond Traditional Legal Roles<\/b><\/p>\n<p>The hundreds of job titles tagged by ex judicata as JD-advantage, reflecting roles where legal skills are highly valued, include:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Compliance and risk management<\/li>\n<li>Diversity, equity, and inclusion leadership<\/li>\n<li>Sales and business development<\/li>\n<li>Brand and product management<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>\u201cThere\u2019s a hidden talent pool in plain sight,\u201d Neil explained. \u201cLawyers bring incredible skills in communication, negotiation, and issue-spotting \u2014 qualities that businesses need more than ever.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><b>Supportive Law Schools And Law Firms<\/b><\/p>\n<p>Interestingly, ex judicata is receiving strong support from law schools and law firms alike.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><b>Law Schools:<\/b> Many have onboarded ex judicata to provide alternative career resources for students. JD-advantage placements also count toward ABA employment metrics, a win-win for schools and graduates.<\/li>\n<li><b>Law Firms:<\/b> Innovative firms with internal outplacement services see value in supporting associates who wish to pivot. This approach keeps alumni in the firm\u2019s ecosystem, creating opportunities for future collaboration.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>\u201cBy helping lawyers transition successfully, firms actually strengthen their alumni networks and client relationships,\u201d Kimberly noted.<\/p>\n<p><b>Practical Tips For Lawyers Exploring A Pivot<\/b><\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re thinking about leaving the practice of law, where should you start? Neil and Kimberly shared actionable insights:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><b>Take The EXJ Career Match Diagnostic:<\/b> Pinpoint your strengths and find areas where your JD skills are most valuable.<\/li>\n<li><b>Read Personal Stories:<\/b> Explore how other lawyers have successfully transitioned into new fields.<\/li>\n<li><b>Ignore The Naysayers:<\/b> Neil encouraged introspection. \u201cListen to yourself. Ignore those who say you\u2019re throwing away your degree \u2014 it\u2019s your life.\u201d<\/li>\n<li><b>Leverage Resources:<\/b> Use tools like ex judicata\u2019s job board, coaches, and community events to explore your options.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><b>Building A Community Around Reinvention<\/b><\/p>\n<p>The mission of ex judicata extends beyond tools and resources \u2014 they\u2019re creating a community. Their WeFunder campaign allows supporters to invest in their mission, fostering a shared vision for reimagining what a legal career can look like.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cChanging someone\u2019s job often changes their life,\u201d Neil reflected. \u201cAnd that\u2019s what drives us \u2014 to help lawyers find careers that bring them fulfillment and joy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re ready to explore your options, visit ex judicata and start your journey. Your JD is a passport, not a prison. Where will it take you next?<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<p><strong><em><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-504327 size-thumbnail\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/abovethelaw.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2018\/06\/Olga-Mack-150x150.jpg?resize=150%2C150&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"Olga Mack\" width=\"150\" height=\"150\" title=\"\">Olga V. Mack\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><strong><em>is a Fellow at CodeX, The Stanford Center for Legal Informatics, and a Generative AI Editor at law.MIT. Olga embraces legal innovation and had dedicated her career to improving and shaping the future of law. She is convinced that the legal profession will emerge even stronger, more resilient, and more inclusive than before by embracing technology. Olga is also an award-winning general counsel, operations professional, startup advisor, public speaker, adjunct professor, and entrepreneur. She authored\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Get-Board-Earning-Ticket-Corporate\/dp\/1949991407\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><em>Get on Board: Earning Your Ticket to a Corporate Board Seat<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><em>,\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Fundamentals-Smart-Contract-Security-Richard-ebook\/dp\/B07S8YF27G\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><em>Fundamentals of Smart Contract Security<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong>, and\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Blockchain-Value-Transforming-Business-Communities\/dp\/1952538246\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><em><strong>Blockchain Value: Transforming Business Models, Society, and Communities<\/strong><\/em><\/a><strong><em>.\u00a0She is working on three books:\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><strong><em>Visual IQ for Lawyers (ABA 2024),\u00a0The Rise of Product Lawyers: An Analytical Framework to Systematically Advise Your Clients Throughout the Product Lifecycle (Globe Law and Business 2024), and Legal Operations in the Age of AI and Data (Globe Law and Business 2024). You can follow Olga on\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/olgamack\/\" rel=\"nofollow noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><em>LinkedIn<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><em>\u00a0and Twitter @olgavmack.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In a legal world often defined by rigid swim lanes and limited career trajectories, how do you carve a new path? On Season 10, Episode 9 of \u201cNotes to My (Legal) Self,\u201d I had the pleasure of talking with Neil Handwerker and Kimberly Fine, co-founders of ex judicata, about reimagining what you can do with [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":116856,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_et_pb_use_builder":"","_et_pb_old_content":"","_et_gb_content_width":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[16],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-116855","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-above_the_law"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/xira.com\/p\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/Olga-Mack-150x150-nkSPhC.jpeg?fit=150%2C150&ssl=1","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/116855","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=116855"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/116855\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/116856"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=116855"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=116855"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/xira.com\/p\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=116855"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}