Our last Q&A with Davis Wright Tremaine’s Yusuf Zakir was centered on diversity, definitions, and preparing the defenses from oncoming attack. What is diversity and why is it important? Who benefits from diversity initiatives and why does that matter? What material benefits do law firms receive from having a diverse work force? This Q&A comes after a yuge assault on DEI: Donald Trump signed a series of executive orders targeting Biglaw firms that had any involvement with diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. Several firms padded the President’s pro bono coffers or obeyed in advance to avoid Trump’s ire. Davis Wright Tremaine was not one of them. I sent Yusuf a couple of questions to figure out what separates DWT from the firms that didn’t do nearly as well on our Biglaw Spine Index. His answers are below.
Chris: You’ve been the Chief Talent & Inclusion officer at Davis Wright Tremaine for a month now. How does it compare to your prior role as Chief Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer? Are there any new responsibilities that come with overseeing the talent life cycle?
First of all, I am really grateful for the opportunity to do this work. For Davis Wright Tremaine, it is a natural evolution of the way we think about our talent, allowing a more integrated approach across the lawyer talent lifecycle. Our vision is to hire, develop and grow lawyers who combine deep legal expertise, technological fluency, business acumen, and emotional intelligence – creating an excellent, inclusive, adaptive workforce that fuels exceptional client outcomes. And I am excited to be able to help push that vision forward.
Practically, my new role includes two major additional responsibilities: (1) overseeing our recruiting efforts for all our lawyers, from summer associates to lateral partners to small groups; and (2) overseeing our professional development and training efforts for our lawyers. We have existing teams in the firm that have supported both functions and I have been fortunate to have already worked with them in my previous capacity—and now our relationship has evolved and our ability to collaborate has deepened. We have all rolled up our sleeves to think about how to continue meeting our vision and upleveling our support of our talent.
Chris: Biglaw has largely been silent about the broader consequences of the Trump administration’s attack on law firms. Instead of following suit, DWT doubled down and took the Costco approach to diversity. For example, DWT was one of the few Biglaw firms in the Am Law 100 that joined the amicus brief supporting Perkins Coie. At a time when other firms are getting rid of DEI programs, the firm promoted you to better incorporate DEI into the talent life cycle. What is motivating the firm to stand on their principles at a time when the majority of law firms are either saying nothing about or bowing down to the Trump administration?
In 1944, John Davis founded our firm on a few foundational principles that he described as “Real Aims.” This included having a “good reputation” among fellow people, “especially for ability and integrity.” 81 years later, these “Real Aims” still guide us. It is a legacy that we must continue to uphold. I’m really proud of our firm leadership, including our managing partner and executive committee, for helping us navigate these times.
Chris: We recently saw a wave of wins from the firms that were brave enough to resist Trump’s executive orders. Has that had a positive impact on morale for associates and partners at DWT? What can firms do to make the most of the momentum?
It’s a matter of pride to be able to stand by and uphold your values – doing that always boosts morale. We have also been overwhelmed by the encouragement and support that we have received from our clients in response to our willingness to sign the amicus. It is always helpful (and validating) to hear from people outside the firm – and especially the clients we serve. There is a lot of power in standing together and supporting each other.
Chris: There’s some real talent defecting from the firms that capitulated. Does DWT see this as a chance to grab some talent that’s really committed to diversity?
Our pitch at DWT is quite simple: this is a place where you can build, grow, and develop a very successful and customized career doing interesting work with very nice people. I realize that a lot of firms probably say that. But, when you look at the success of our up-the-ranks talent and our lateral talent, you can actually see how people have been given the freedom to build exciting practices and teams here, working for cutting-edge clients and with really smart and kind colleagues, without a lot of the sharp elbows and bureaucracy that might exist elsewhere.
Chris: Very often public discussions of diversity get derailed by bad faith actors or people who genuinely don’t see the importance of de-homogenizing the workplace. Is there an aspect of diversity, equity, or inclusion that you’re passionate about that you don’t get to discuss as much as you’d like because of discursive pressures? For example, I think that there would be more public recognition of the sense of belonging and camaraderie that can come from being a member of an affinity group if so much time wasn’t wasted arguing over if affinity groups should even exist.
First of all, great job with the word, discursive. Second, I don’t think we spend enough time addressing the broader systemic challenges that have led to the set of challenges we face in our profession. The challenges in the legal profession are not really unique or special; they’re very consistent with challenges we see in many other sectors of society, be it education, housing, healthcare, criminal justice, etc. If we were able to more consistently widen the aperture, it might help us think a little differently about the challenges we face and how to solve them. What we have tried to do to reshape the conversation is to offer our monthly DEI education series (within the Education pillar!) that is really focused on broader societal optics. For example, in the past, we’ve hosted folks like Nikole Hannah-Jones and Isabel Wilkerson, to help present to us a much broader picture.
Chris: Do you have any advice for folks in leadership roles that have to balance advocating for the small decisions over time that diversify firms but are also worried about potential backlash from the Trump administration?
It is really challenging and even debilitating to lead from a constant state of concern and fear. Those elements will always be part of the leadership calculus, but they cannot take up a majority of the space. Despite challenging circumstances, and, in fact, especially during challenging circumstances, it is important to focus on hope and positivity. I know that leaders everywhere right now are dealing with a lot. But, ultimately, I hope they continue to lead into the light.
The small decisions you mention are so critical. Specifically, the thousands of small decisions that happen between individuals and in small groups – whether it is including somebody in a meeting, pitch, or lunch; offering feedback or guidance; sharing social capital and information; offering space for failure and room for growth. All of this happens in very small ways on a daily basis and is predominantly about people being fair and kind to each other. While these decisions are not necessarily controlled by any external or internal policies, they can and are modeled by our leadership. And that helps lead the way.
On behalf of everyone here at Above the Law, we’d like to thank Yusuf Zakir for taking the time to talk about his new position and the firm’s commitment to upholding John Davis’s “Real Aims.” If you’ve yet to, I hope that the conversation inspires you to commit to leading in a way that offers space for failure and room for growth. One more aspiration: make sure that you are able to take enough time off to enjoy living. You’re welcome to spend some of that leisure time reading our earlier in-depth discussion of DWT’s stance on diversity.
Earlier: Davis Wright Tremaine’s DEI Chief Yusuf Zakir Shares Thoughts On The Need For Diversity
Chris Williams became a social media manager and assistant editor for Above the Law in June 2021. Prior to joining the staff, he moonlighted as a minor Memelord™ in the Facebook group Law School Memes for Edgy T14s. He endured Missouri long enough to graduate from Washington University in St. Louis School of Law. He is a former boatbuilder who is learning to swim, is interested in critical race theory, philosophy, and humor, and has a love for cycling that occasionally annoys his peers. You can reach him by email at cwilliams@abovethelaw.com and by tweet at @WritesForRent.
The post Davis Wright Tremaine’s Chief Talent & Inclusion Officer Talks About Diversity After Trump’s Attack On Biglaw appeared first on Above the Law.
Our last Q&A with Davis Wright Tremaine’s Yusuf Zakir was centered on diversity, definitions, and preparing the defenses from oncoming attack. What is diversity and why is it important? Who benefits from diversity initiatives and why does that matter? What material benefits do law firms receive from having a diverse work force? This Q&A comes after a yuge assault on DEI: Donald Trump signed a series of executive orders targeting Biglaw firms that had any involvement with diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. Several firms padded the President’s pro bono coffers or obeyed in advance to avoid Trump’s ire. Davis Wright Tremaine was not one of them. I sent Yusuf a couple of questions to figure out what separates DWT from the firms that didn’t do nearly as well on our Biglaw Spine Index. His answers are below.
Chris: You’ve been the Chief Talent & Inclusion officer at Davis Wright Tremaine for a month now. How does it compare to your prior role as Chief Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer? Are there any new responsibilities that come with overseeing the talent life cycle?
First of all, I am really grateful for the opportunity to do this work. For Davis Wright Tremaine, it is a natural evolution of the way we think about our talent, allowing a more integrated approach across the lawyer talent lifecycle. Our vision is to hire, develop and grow lawyers who combine deep legal expertise, technological fluency, business acumen, and emotional intelligence – creating an excellent, inclusive, adaptive workforce that fuels exceptional client outcomes. And I am excited to be able to help push that vision forward.
Practically, my new role includes two major additional responsibilities: (1) overseeing our recruiting efforts for all our lawyers, from summer associates to lateral partners to small groups; and (2) overseeing our professional development and training efforts for our lawyers. We have existing teams in the firm that have supported both functions and I have been fortunate to have already worked with them in my previous capacity—and now our relationship has evolved and our ability to collaborate has deepened. We have all rolled up our sleeves to think about how to continue meeting our vision and upleveling our support of our talent.
Chris: Biglaw has largely been silent about the broader consequences of the Trump administration’s attack on law firms. Instead of following suit, DWT doubled down and took the Costco approach to diversity. For example, DWT was one of the few Biglaw firms in the Am Law 100 that joined the amicus brief supporting Perkins Coie. At a time when other firms are getting rid of DEI programs, the firm promoted you to better incorporate DEI into the talent life cycle. What is motivating the firm to stand on their principles at a time when the majority of law firms are either saying nothing about or bowing down to the Trump administration?
In 1944, John Davis founded our firm on a few foundational principles that he described as “Real Aims.” This included having a “good reputation” among fellow people, “especially for ability and integrity.” 81 years later, these “Real Aims” still guide us. It is a legacy that we must continue to uphold. I’m really proud of our firm leadership, including our managing partner and executive committee, for helping us navigate these times.
Chris: We recently saw a wave of wins from the firms that were brave enough to resist Trump’s executive orders. Has that had a positive impact on morale for associates and partners at DWT? What can firms do to make the most of the momentum?
It’s a matter of pride to be able to stand by and uphold your values – doing that always boosts morale. We have also been overwhelmed by the encouragement and support that we have received from our clients in response to our willingness to sign the amicus. It is always helpful (and validating) to hear from people outside the firm – and especially the clients we serve. There is a lot of power in standing together and supporting each other.
Chris: There’s some real talent defecting from the firms that capitulated. Does DWT see this as a chance to grab some talent that’s really committed to diversity?
Our pitch at DWT is quite simple: this is a place where you can build, grow, and develop a very successful and customized career doing interesting work with very nice people. I realize that a lot of firms probably say that. But, when you look at the success of our up-the-ranks talent and our lateral talent, you can actually see how people have been given the freedom to build exciting practices and teams here, working for cutting-edge clients and with really smart and kind colleagues, without a lot of the sharp elbows and bureaucracy that might exist elsewhere.
Chris: Very often public discussions of diversity get derailed by bad faith actors or people who genuinely don’t see the importance of de-homogenizing the workplace. Is there an aspect of diversity, equity, or inclusion that you’re passionate about that you don’t get to discuss as much as you’d like because of discursive pressures? For example, I think that there would be more public recognition of the sense of belonging and camaraderie that can come from being a member of an affinity group if so much time wasn’t wasted arguing over if affinity groups should even exist.
First of all, great job with the word, discursive. Second, I don’t think we spend enough time addressing the broader systemic challenges that have led to the set of challenges we face in our profession. The challenges in the legal profession are not really unique or special; they’re very consistent with challenges we see in many other sectors of society, be it education, housing, healthcare, criminal justice, etc. If we were able to more consistently widen the aperture, it might help us think a little differently about the challenges we face and how to solve them. What we have tried to do to reshape the conversation is to offer our monthly DEI education series (within the Education pillar!) that is really focused on broader societal optics. For example, in the past, we’ve hosted folks like Nikole Hannah-Jones and Isabel Wilkerson, to help present to us a much broader picture.
Chris: Do you have any advice for folks in leadership roles that have to balance advocating for the small decisions over time that diversify firms but are also worried about potential backlash from the Trump administration?
It is really challenging and even debilitating to lead from a constant state of concern and fear. Those elements will always be part of the leadership calculus, but they cannot take up a majority of the space. Despite challenging circumstances, and, in fact, especially during challenging circumstances, it is important to focus on hope and positivity. I know that leaders everywhere right now are dealing with a lot. But, ultimately, I hope they continue to lead into the light.
The small decisions you mention are so critical. Specifically, the thousands of small decisions that happen between individuals and in small groups – whether it is including somebody in a meeting, pitch, or lunch; offering feedback or guidance; sharing social capital and information; offering space for failure and room for growth. All of this happens in very small ways on a daily basis and is predominantly about people being fair and kind to each other. While these decisions are not necessarily controlled by any external or internal policies, they can and are modeled by our leadership. And that helps lead the way.
On behalf of everyone here at Above the Law, we’d like to thank Yusuf Zakir for taking the time to talk about his new position and the firm’s commitment to upholding John Davis’s “Real Aims.” If you’ve yet to, I hope that the conversation inspires you to commit to leading in a way that offers space for failure and room for growth. One more aspiration: make sure that you are able to take enough time off to enjoy living. You’re welcome to spend some of that leisure time reading our earlier in-depth discussion of DWT’s stance on diversity.
Earlier: Davis Wright Tremaine’s DEI Chief Yusuf Zakir Shares Thoughts On The Need For Diversity
Chris Williams became a social media manager and assistant editor for Above the Law in June 2021. Prior to joining the staff, he moonlighted as a minor Memelord™ in the Facebook group Law School Memes for Edgy T14s. He endured Missouri long enough to graduate from Washington University in St. Louis School of Law. He is a former boatbuilder who is learning to swim, is interested in critical race theory, philosophy, and humor, and has a love for cycling that occasionally annoys his peers. You can reach him by email at cwilliams@abovethelaw.com and by tweet at @WritesForRent.
The post Davis Wright Tremaine’s Chief Talent & Inclusion Officer Talks About Diversity After Trump’s Attack On Biglaw appeared first on Above the Law.
