Ed. note: Please welcome Vivia Chen back to the pages of Above the Law. Subscribe to her Substack, “The Ex-Careerist,” here.
NOT FOR ONE MINUTE DID I BELIEVE Don Liu when he told me last year that he was going to hang it up and smell the flowers. I mean, this guy can’t stay still.
And bingo, I was right! Because after quitting his high profile job as chief legal officer at Target Corporation at the tender age of 62 and puttering around for about eight months, Liu is back in the game. Recently, he became the chief legal officer at Flutter Entertainment, an international sports betting and online gambling company based in Dublin and New York with $14.05 billion in revenue.
In the world of law, Liu is a big wheel. Not only has he served as the general counsel of four Fortune 500 companies (Xerox, Toll Brothers, IKON, as well as Target) but he’s famous for championing diversity and breaking the bamboo ceiling.
When I first met Liu in 2010, he stood out on two counts: he was one of the few Asian American general counsel of a mega company, and he was an incorrigible jokester. But he was dead serious about one thing: increasing the number of Asian American GCs in the Fortune 500. Along with his buddy Wilson Chu, Liu set goals that seemed lofty at the time: 10 Fortune 500 Asian American GC by 2010, 20 by 2020, 25 by 2025. Those targets were quickly exceeded. Today, that number is around 50 — stunning, considering that in 1999, Liu was the only Asian American GC in the Fortune 500.
Born in Seoul, Liu emigrated to the U.S. with his parents and two siblings in 1972, landing in a small town near Philadelphia. Lacking resources or connections, Liu was hardly preordained to be a top lawyer. His ticket was academic excellence: Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Haverford College, then Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar at Columbia Law School.
So what’s up with Liu’s new gig? In a series of free ranging discussions, we talked about everything – his career highs and lows, the ickiness of business development, being short and the joys of sinning. As always, Liu was funny, thoughtful and refreshingly unfiltered.
What happened to getting out of the rat race? Was retirement too boring? Not at all. I was enjoying it. But recruiters were enticing me with a number of opportunities. [Flutter Entertainment] was looking for an interim GC which involved traveling to Dublin and London for three to six months. And I thought, that sounds like fun. I interviewed with the CEO [Peter Jackson] and we really connected. He then convinced me to take the job full time, not just the interim.
You’ve always worked for staid, blue chip companies. Now you’re going to the dark side – gambling. Is this some sort of rebellion? That’s not that far from the truth. I have a boy scout resume – Xerox, Target – companies that are as clean cut as they come. Gaming is more edgy. Earlier in my career I might not have jumped at this. But it’s interesting stuff. And this is a really fun company. People here are super smart. I asked the CEO: “Are you a gaming, entertainment or tech company?” And he immediately answered: “A tech company.” That’s the way he saw it, and I liked that
You’ve had a spectacular career. Did you have a grand plan? Nothing was planned. It was a series of accidents. But I did make the decision to stick it out in law when I had an opportunity to go into business. The second decision was going in-house. I didn’t know what I was doing but I knew there were certain things about law firm practice that I wasn’t suited for. I’m sure I wouldn’t have had nearly as much success if I had stayed in a law firm.
As a lawyer of color, did you feel your prospects were better in a company than a law firm? In the 1980s, when I was at [Simpson, Thacher & Bartlett], hustling for business as an Asian American didn’t seem doable. It was hard, and I tried, but it was a major uphill climb.
What about now? It seems like Big Law is chock full of Asian American faces. There’s been progress in law firms. [Asians represent over 12% of associates and 5% of partners.] But what hasn’t progressed is Asian representation in leadership – managing partners or heads of departments. That’s a reflection of their challenges in rainmaking. I know it’s horrible to ask for work. No one says, I want to go to law school to be a salesman, which is what a rainmaker is. To get business, Asian lawyers need to work on their soft skills – being charismatic and popular.
So you think Asian American lawyers need to step it up. Instead of complaining that we’re underrepresented, how about we do something about it? You have to market yourself, and put yourself out there for people to see your strengths, which goes against traditional Confucian teachings. So I put this challenge in front of Asian Americans: Do you think it’s working if you sit in your office and work on documents all day? That’s not how the world works.
Were you ever that nerd working away with his head down? Maybe early on. But it didn’t take me long to realize that the people who get recognized are the ones walking the halls. I was one of the first Asian American associates to be hired at Simpson Thatcher and what I learned quickly was that the more successful partners at the firm were very visible — the ones you couldn’t avoid. I now realized some of them were introverted but they pushed themselves.
Is the message that you can change, even if you think you’re hopelessly shy? I tell my mentees that [being shy] is no excuse. My CEO [Brian Cornell] at Target is an introvert, but if you talk to him at a cocktail reception, you’d never know it. He can really work the room. Some of the best networkers are introverts because they actually listen to people; whereas extroverts, like me, ignore half the things people say because I just keep talking.
Speaking of Target, does it break your heart that all your hard work on diversity is now being trashed? Target seems to be doing a 180 on DEI.
Subscribe to read more at The Ex-Careerist….
Vivia Chen writes “The Ex-Careerist” column on Substack where she unleashes her unvarnished views about the intersection of work, life, and politics. A former lawyer, she was an opinion columnist at Bloomberg Law and The American Lawyer. Subscribe to her Substack by clicking here:
The post Watch Out – Don Liu Is Back! appeared first on Above the Law.
Ed. note: Please welcome Vivia Chen back to the pages of Above the Law. Subscribe to her Substack, “The Ex-Careerist,”here.
NOT FOR ONE MINUTE DID I BELIEVE Don Liu when he told me last year that he was going to hang it up and smell the flowers. I mean, this guy can’t stay still.
And bingo, I was right! Because after quitting his high profile job as chief legal officer at Target Corporation at the tender age of 62 and puttering around for about eight months, Liu is back in the game. Recently, he became the chief legal officer at Flutter Entertainment, an international sports betting and online gambling company based in Dublin and New York with $14.05 billion in revenue.
In the world of law, Liu is a big wheel. Not only has he served as the general counsel of four Fortune 500 companies (Xerox, Toll Brothers, IKON, as well as Target) but he’s famous for championing diversity and breaking the bamboo ceiling.
When I first met Liu in 2010, he stood out on two counts: he was one of the few Asian American general counsel of a mega company, and he was an incorrigible jokester. But he was dead serious about one thing: increasing the number of Asian American GCs in the Fortune 500. Along with his buddy Wilson Chu, Liu set goals that seemed lofty at the time: 10 Fortune 500 Asian American GC by 2010, 20 by 2020, 25 by 2025. Those targets were quickly exceeded. Today, that number is around 50 — stunning, considering that in 1999, Liu was the only Asian American GC in the Fortune 500.
Born in Seoul, Liu emigrated to the U.S. with his parents and two siblings in 1972, landing in a small town near Philadelphia. Lacking resources or connections, Liu was hardly preordained to be a top lawyer. His ticket was academic excellence: Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Haverford College, then Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar at Columbia Law School.
So what’s up with Liu’s new gig? In a series of free ranging discussions, we talked about everything – his career highs and lows, the ickiness of business development, being short and the joys of sinning. As always, Liu was funny, thoughtful and refreshingly unfiltered.
What happened to getting out of the rat race? Was retirement too boring? Not at all. I was enjoying it. But recruiters were enticing me with a number of opportunities. [Flutter Entertainment] was looking for an interim GC which involved traveling to Dublin and London for three to six months. And I thought, that sounds like fun. I interviewed with the CEO [Peter Jackson] and we really connected. He then convinced me to take the job full time, not just the interim.
You’ve always worked for staid, blue chip companies. Now you’re going to the dark side – gambling. Is this some sort of rebellion? That’s not that far from the truth. I have a boy scout resume – Xerox, Target – companies that are as clean cut as they come. Gaming is more edgy. Earlier in my career I might not have jumped at this. But it’s interesting stuff. And this is a really fun company. People here are super smart. I asked the CEO: “Are you a gaming, entertainment or tech company?” And he immediately answered: “A tech company.” That’s the way he saw it, and I liked that
You’ve had a spectacular career. Did you have a grand plan? Nothing was planned. It was a series of accidents. But I did make the decision to stick it out in law when I had an opportunity to go into business. The second decision was going in-house. I didn’t know what I was doing but I knew there were certain things about law firm practice that I wasn’t suited for. I’m sure I wouldn’t have had nearly as much success if I had stayed in a law firm.
As a lawyer of color, did you feel your prospects were better in a company than a law firm? In the 1980s, when I was at [Simpson, Thacher & Bartlett], hustling for business as an Asian American didn’t seem doable. It was hard, and I tried, but it was a major uphill climb.
What about now? It seems like Big Law is chock full of Asian American faces. There’s been progress in law firms. [Asians represent over 12% of associates and 5% of partners.] But what hasn’t progressed is Asian representation in leadership – managing partners or heads of departments. That’s a reflection of their challenges in rainmaking. I know it’s horrible to ask for work. No one says, I want to go to law school to be a salesman, which is what a rainmaker is. To get business, Asian lawyers need to work on their soft skills – being charismatic and popular.
So you think Asian American lawyers need to step it up. Instead of complaining that we’re underrepresented, how about we do something about it? You have to market yourself, and put yourself out there for people to see your strengths, which goes against traditional Confucian teachings. So I put this challenge in front of Asian Americans: Do you think it’s working if you sit in your office and work on documents all day? That’s not how the world works.
Were you ever that nerd working away with his head down? Maybe early on. But it didn’t take me long to realize that the people who get recognized are the ones walking the halls. I was one of the first Asian American associates to be hired at Simpson Thatcher and what I learned quickly was that the more successful partners at the firm were very visible — the ones you couldn’t avoid. I now realized some of them were introverted but they pushed themselves.
Is the message that you can change, even if you think you’re hopelessly shy? I tell my mentees that [being shy] is no excuse. My CEO [Brian Cornell] at Target is an introvert, but if you talk to him at a cocktail reception, you’d never know it. He can really work the room. Some of the best networkers are introverts because they actually listen to people; whereas extroverts, like me, ignore half the things people say because I just keep talking.
Speaking of Target, does it break your heart that all your hard work on diversity is now being trashed? Target seems to be doing a 180 on DEI.
Subscribe to read more at The Ex-Careerist….
Vivia Chen writes “The Ex-Careerist” column on Substack where she unleashes her unvarnished views about the intersection of work, life, and politics. A former lawyer, she was an opinion columnist at Bloomberg Law and The American Lawyer. Subscribe to her Substack by clicking here:
